Bizcommunity: The Government Communication and Information System (GCIS) department tells me you're here to advise them on how to get everyone singing from the same hymn sheet when it comes to communications?
Alastair Campbell: I got approached because they [GCIS] are having this conference where they are bringing together a lot of the [SA government] communications people. Really, they are agreeing on a strategic communications plan and I think they're wrestling with a lot of challenges that I wrestled with when I was working for the government.
I attended one of the sessions [earlier this week] where it was like listening to some of the arguments we had back in the '90s [in the UK]. It came down to the question: "What do we mean when we're talking about communications?" ...Communications is partly about dealing with journalists but ultimately it's about communicating to and with the public - and part of that is done through the media.
I know Internet access in South Africa is low but if you look at Britain and America and the way that Twitter and Facebook has changed the way politics is being debated, it's been phenomenal...
When you get into government, there are three pillars: You have policy, which is the most important thing; you have public service delivery, which is about trying to translate the policy into action on the ground; and you have communications. Now you can't have communications without policy... but, likewise, if you have policy, you do have to communicate it. A government has a duty in my view to communicate to the people who elected that government.
Now even more complicated in my view is a country like South Africa, where you have elements of what we would define 'the first world' but you also have a lot of what would be defined in some quarters as 'the third world'. So how you communicate the same message to these different audiences is a genuine point. It's not just about politicians trying to be popular...
So what GCIS wanted me to come here and talk about is how we changed communications [in the British government]... It was about understanding that, for any organisation in the modern media age, you have to set the agenda on your own terms - otherwise it's likely to be done [by someone else] to your detriment...
This isn't about stopping people writing negative stories because they're always going to do that. What it's about is understanding that if you communicate strategically over time, you can get your message through to the public. But it does require you to be strategic and it does take time.
Biz: OK, that's interesting in the South African context as the government and print media in particular have a very adversarial relationship here. So putting myself in the government's shoes, it certainly seems to feel hard done by. It feels it does good but it can't get the message about this out into the print media. This week we've had controversy over the government's plans to have its own newspaper. Is this so controversial as long as you don't use it to push the ANC party line?
Campbell: I think it's an interesting thing. I walked into my hotel today and the Sowetan had a picture of [GCIS head] Jimmy Manyi with the headline, "Dirty tricks boss". Why is the communication of government information automatically assumed to be dirty tricks? That speaks to a totally negative mind set about anything the government says or does. And in a funny sort of way maybe it underlies the need for a different approach [by government].
I did a tweet on this very issue ["Media here hacked off re government plans for their own monthly paper. Seems ok idea in country with 5percent internet access"] and the first tweet that came back was from someone living in South Africa and she said that as long as the newspaper wasn't used as a propaganda machine, she didn't have a problem with it.
Biz: Governments around the world do fund their own newspapers, don't they?
Campbell: Of course they do. And as I said [to GCIS earlier this week] I'd love to know how much does the American government spend putting government information on the web. Millions. The thing is in South Africa you've got very low Internet access so what I've said to Jimmy and his team, when they asked me what I thought of the controversy, was: "Look, the newspapers say this is about you taking them on. Well, it's not. You should say it's about us reaching people who aren't being reached by your newspapers and don't have access to the internet." So I don't have a problem with it.
Biz: Can I tell you why I think, as a journalist, the relationship has become so adversarial? I think journalists think they are ignored in South Africa and that the government doesn't see itself as accountable to anyone. You can have revelations in the press of corruption and maladministration, and the government just carries on - they don't take responsibility and no one loses their jobs.
Here an example: Four years ago, the Daily Dispatch newspaper revealed that infant deaths in the maternity ward in one of East London's main state hospitals was very high due to negligence and poor management. The only government person to speak out about what was going on was the deputy health minister [Nozizwe Madlala-Routledge] and she was fired. No one else lost their jobs - neither the health minister nor the people who run the hospital complex. And, low and behold, four years later the same thing is still happening - babies are still dying at an abnormally high rate in the hospital. The Daily Dispatch has exposed this all over again. To me, this is a problem. I've lived in Britain and there you can see that, if the press exposes bad things, people take responsibility and something happens.
Campbell: Yeah, and in a democracy that is a legitimate role for the press to play so, if corruption is exposed, the government should deal with it. If a newspaper genuinely exposes failures in public services then something should be done about it...
Biz: The South African government's way is to duck and dive - it'll try ignore the journalists or not be available for comment. Surely, that's not the right way to deal with the press?
Campbell: No, you have to be available. As you probably know, I had a very adversarial relationship with the British press. One the one hand, I was constantly available to them. I did two briefings a day. They all had my numbers and they could always phone me.
I didn't necessarily always speak to them or was terribly helpful. But a lot of work that I did within government was on their behalf and yet they would describe it as 'being spun'...
On the one hand they want all the service that the government press office can give but on the other hand they want to be able to say we're all terrible people doing terrible things. When it gets like that, it does become very adversarial.
What I've always said - and maybe this does apply to the South African situation - is until there is honesty on both sides about the roles that they play, it's not going to change. Until the press accepts that they have an equal vested interest in there being a good, strong government communications, then neither side will get a good deal.
Biz: In South Africa we don't have a sophisticated PR industry. I have seldom met what I would really call a spin doctor. But that's certainly people's view of you. Did you ever feel that you were a spin doctor doing terrible things?
Campbell: No, not at all. I was a journalist [before joining Labour and the government]. I feel that more journalists do more terrible things than government spin doctors do.
Biz: Why?
Campbell: A lot of journalists make up stories and write things that they know not to be true. If you pick up the British Sunday newspapers and you read the endless anonymous quotes, I'd be surprised if more than half are genuine.
I was always conscious in doing the job that - just as Tony Blair as prime minister would want to be sure that if he said anything in Parliament that it was true - I adopted the same approach in my relationship with the press. Often people would ask me questions or for information that I knew but that for various reasons I couldn't give. I would say: "Well, I'm not prepared to tell you."
And if you speak to most reasonable fair-minded British journalists that [sic] I dealt with, I think they'll certainly tell you privately that I was perfectly straight with them. But one of the ways that I was straight that told them that I wasn't there to work for them; I was there to work for the Labour Party and the Labour government.
What is needed is a much more mature debate on both sides. And it's really not there with the media at the moment.
Biz: One of the things you've been talking to GCIS about is best practice. It sounds like what you're saying is if you're in government communications, you should not be in a position where you feel you have to lie.
Campbell: No, you mustn't.
Biz: Did you ever feel that someone in government was luring you to be compromised?
Campbell: No, because they all pretty much operated in the same system. Often, where it got very difficult was where the professional and personal collided - where people did things in their private lives and sometimes I would not be very helpful... And often the press could tell when I was promoting a government policy I didn't particularly believe in.
Biz: A big thing in South Africa is that the SABC is a tame lapdog in the hands of the government. I'm interested in your relationship with the BBC. There was no way that government could ever influence the BBC, could it?
Campbell: No, it would have been completely counter-productive. They protect their independence very, very strongly.
Biz: And that's a good thing, isn't it?
Campbell: Yes.
Biz: You say that GCIS needs to develop a long-term strategy but did you see any strengths at the sessions?
Campbell: Yeah, lots. They're an intelligent bunch of people and a lot of them have some really bright ideas. When I'm talking about a communication strategy, I mean that the best communications strategy has to come from what the government is doing... So one of the points someone in the audience made is that sometimes civil servants confuse independence and impartiality.
A duty to be impartial is not the same thing as a duty to be independent. So a government is elected to put through a programme which is fundamentally political. And even though it's not the job of civil-service communicators to promote a political strategy, they have to understand the political strategy that underpins the policy.
I think they [at GCIS] feel under-resourced - it does seem pretty tight when you get out to the regions and local councils. The media is growing and it is growing very fast in South Africa - as in the rest of the world.
The challenge is how do you marry professional communications in the modern media age with a desire to be communicating with the public that doesn't watch the news 24 hours a day? The media gets bored with things very quickly because they're watching TV all day. Most of the public don't. And also anyone in the public eye thinks they get a bad press - it just comes with the territory...
Biz: So if you're in government communications, you have to develop a thick skin?
Campbell: Yeah, definitely. You shouldn't worry too much about what the papers say about you. Every time someone says something bad about you is an opportunity for you to go and say something else.
